Kinda like Christmas here today, got a package in the mail from Deal Extreme (DX) in China... :) Here is a link to the motor that I ordered http://www.dx.com/p/a2212s-2700kv-outrunner-brushless-motor-45134#.VDiS62ddXkV
As you may already know if you have read any of the previous posts, mine and Stephan's favorite medium weight park jet motor is the Focal Price A2212S 2700 Kv motor http://www.focalprice.com/YO090X/A2212_2200KV_Outrunner_Brushless_Motor_for_Airplane.html Focal Price has been sold out of this motor for months now, so not that I am in a panic as I have a few in stock, but I started looking around for another source for this size and type of motor which is how I found the DX motor.
Rob Davis who is a regular contributor to this blog also told us about this vendor on eBay who seems to be selling what appears to be the same motor http://www.ebay.com/itm/321227178111 for less money and still free shipping. I currently have one on the way and will post about that one when it arrives.
So the DX motor shipped much more quickly than expected, I received an e-mail telling me it left the factory on 23 September and it arrived today, 10 October, so 17 days which is pretty quick considering free shipping.
Here is a picture comparing the DX motor and a new FP motor out of the package as sent to me.
So I got out my high tech plastic micrometer from the dollar store and took some measurements. The "cans" are identical in diameter and depth. The motor shaft is also identical in length and diameter (3.17mm). As you can see in the picture, the DX motor on the left is black and has five holes in the top of the can as opposed to 4. Weight as they sit in the picture with no connectors or other hardware is identical at 50 gr/1.75 oz.
I find it amusing that DX sends along the prop saver with very tiny rubber bands to hold on a prop that on 3S is going to be spinning at close to 30,000 RPM... :/ Needless to say, I will be using a standard prop collet and bullet nut on mine. I have a bunch of them that I get from RC Timer http://www.rctimer.com/product-580.html
You can also use pretty much any other 3.17 mm adapter, the D2826/6 motor from Hobby King uses a good prop collet and bullet nut. When I bought my first FP motor, I had to borrow a good prop collet from my D2826/6 motor as the one that comes with it is not very good.
The rest of the hardware like the screws to mount the X mount and the X mount itself are all identical between the two motors and completely interchangeable.
Here is the motor with all hardware attached including the male bullet connectors which you must supply yourself. With the 6x3 EMP prop, weight is identical to the Focal Price motor 66 gr/2.3 oz
So I hope to be able to get it bench tested in the next couple days and then will drop it into my trusty testbed RCP F18 V3 and take it to the field for a quick field test.
All the specs on the site and from everything I see thus far tells me it is the same motor, but only putting it to the test to see what sort of amps it draws and thrust it produces will let me know what is really happening.
More to follow in the coming days, but thus far it looks positive... :)
Cheers,
Scott
Hi Scott,
ReplyDeleteI finally got off my butt this morning (Oct 10th) and ordered everything I'll need for this current build. I ended up getting most of what you've been recommending from three different vendors HK USA; HeadsUpRC; and RCTimer; so the Mig29 V3 might just have a winter maiden flight scheduled at some point.
Hopefully The DX motor proves to be a good replacement for the FP 2700, I'll be interested in what you decide. Although I could have swapped out my RCTimer 2826-6 from my 52" Zagnutz wing, as a back up I ordered another Turnigy 2826-6 from HK just in case the new motor from China turns out to be a dud.
October 10th is also my wife's birthday and mine is Oct 11th (same year) so I know what your thinking "How romantic"... :-) . Each year on the 10th she's one day older than me, and although it's her birthday and cause for celebration.... i never let her forget that I'm the younger man today...lol.
talk to you soon,
RT
Hi RT -
DeleteA very happy birthday to both you and your wife... :)
What final setup have you decided to go with for your Mig WRT control setup, etc?
I hope to get the DX 2700 motor bench tested today or tomorrow, so far I am pretty confident it is basically the same motor as the FP 2700. If amazing acceleration and greater top speed are what you are looking for, once you try the DX/FP motor versus the 2826/6 motor, you may not want to go back, it can be addicting... :/ I'll post the test results as soon as I have them.
Again, a very happy birthday to you and your wife.
Cheers,
Scott
Hi Scott-
ReplyDeleteAlthough I keep having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that in some situation’s heavier can be better... I do agree with you, and trust your judgment on the subject as it relates to park jet‘s. Sometimes I even consider F1’s popular 2S set up for the Mig, but I’m not so sure I want to explore that route just yet. Hopefully the 4x4 at this point wont be the typical beginner mistake of loading up a park jet just because you can, or maybe because it's fun ….and then having the inevitable happen. I think my lack of satisfaction with the maneuverability of both my Mig29 V2, and Zagnutz 52” wing on elevons only (although not a fair comparison) requires me to at least try something different. I feel confident with my experience level at this point so I ordered enough goodies so I can at least try the 4x4 set up if I decide too. I’m thinking elevons with independent ailerons like you've mentioned below is a good way to go and probably just save a little weight if I can with a single servo for the rudders. I also decided to go with the 1800mAh batteries because its what I have been using, so hopefully it will give me some middle ground in the power to weight consortium conundrum…
http://www.rcpowers.com/community/threads/servo-chatter-or-twitching.15449/#post-180860
I just realized that I’m no longer the ‘Young Guy’ anymore and unfortunately eligible for AARP now
:-(
Talk to you soon
RT
Hi RT -
DeleteSorry if I added any stress to your build decisions... :/
So for a minute lets not worry about what I have said or how I like my planes to handle and fly. My builds WRT to weight and setup are geared to what I want my planes to do and the conditions in which I normally fly.
So perhaps if you honestly ask yourself a couple of questions knowing the risk/reward of whatever path you follow, it might help you decide more easily which build path to take.
What conditions do you fly in or feel comfortable flying in?
If wind is always going to be a factor, you just have to adapt to it. Even though the Mig29 V3 is a very stable plane, at too light a weight, it is going to be much more susceptible to the wind. With too light a plane, you spend more time just being reactive to the wind rather being proactive in flying how you want to fly, not as much fun in my experience. If you fly in mostly calm conditions, then weight is really not as much of a factor.
How do I want my plane to fly?
Do you want good top speed, great pop and accleration? If so, then if you are planning to use the DX2700 motor on 3S with a 6x3 EMP prop, you will get that. If you want something slower and more docile, then you can try the 7" slow fly prop on 2S. The Mig29 accepts a 7" prop pretty easily. Or stick with your RC Timer or the D2826/6 motor(s).
If you found yourself looking for "phantom rudders" on your Mig29 V2 all the time, then obviously you probably want rudders. Dave Powers seems to like the rudders and elevons setup on the Mig29 V4, no ailerons. But again, ask yourself what you want. You can always cut out all the surfaces and then add and subtract whatever you want til your plane is dialed in how you want. It might mean cutting your plane up a bit if you need to add or take away servos but it will let you make the decision yourself.
The pros and cons and opinions of all the different setups are out there and I think you have researched them all, but only you can answer the questions above. And it might just be a matter of taking what you consider an acceptable risk and going for it, there are no guarantees and you won't find the reward if you don't take the risk.
I'm a bit confused by "power to weight consortium conundrum". If you go with the DX2700 motor over the D2826/6 motor, you will need to use a 40A ESC which is about 7gr/0.2 oz heavier than a 30A ESC (at least the ones I use). The DX2700 motor is 1 gram lighter than the D2826/6 motor, but it produces 8-9 oz more thrust. So your DX2700 motor/ESC setup is 6% heavier, but produces 30% more power on 3S.
So I encourage you to answer those two questions above to your satisfaction, regardless of what I or anybody else does and just go for it. The final answer and proving ground will only come when the plane leaves your hand at the field, but you will have done it your way and only you can determine if the results are to your satisfaction.
Yes getting old is like flying in the wind, you can't change it, just adapt to it... :)
Again, if I added more stress to your build thought process, was not my intent. Answer the questions above with respect to what you want and are comfortable with, follow your own path, my feelings will definitely not be hurt if you don't build and fly how I do or use any of my techniques or suggestions. I would be happier for you if you chased and achieved your goals your own way, whatever that may be... :)
Cheers,
Scott
No stress , No worries…I'm really looking forward to trying out the 4x4 setup!
ReplyDeleteWhile we were exchanging comment’s in the FRC SU35 post flight report, I realized there was much more regarding power to weight besides my old way of thinking that "lighter is always better". So I began to consider different set up options in the form of the 4x4 at that point. The conundrum were/are the NEW question's I’m asking myself relating to how I want my plane to fly. I didn't mean that anything I've read hear was difficult, confusing, or hard to understand. On the contrary you've always been very helpful, and go above and beyond to be as thorough and clear as possible with all of your idea’s, and I admired that. It could have been a poor choice of word’s on my part but I just thought it was funny how I came to that realization here in your consortium.
talk to you soon,
RT
Hi RT -
DeleteIt's all good, I just wasn't sure what you meant and hoped I didn't cause any confusion.
The DX2700/FP2700 motor definitely takes your plane to a whole new level performance wise. Much better pop and acceleration than the popular 2200 Kv motors and much higher overall speed.
A 4x4 setup gives you much better flexibility down the line as you want to try other things with your plane. If you learned to fly using rudder and want to have that as well, I guess that should factor into the thinking. You don't have to put a servo or servos in for the rudders if you are still not sure about that or the weight it might add, easier to cut them out during the build and then just put some tape along the bottom of the rudder to hold them in place until you are ready to activate them.
You have all kinds of options available to you with the Mig29 V3. The Mig29 V3 and V4 are in my experience the most versatile park jets I have ever built and experimented with, so you have selected a good airframe with which to start.
Other than the fact it is a pretty awesome looking plane, it's overall versatility is probably why I consider it my favorite park jet. It is versatile with respect to what you can do with the control surfaces WRT combinations, size, etc. It is also the most versatile plane WRT what power setup you can use. It handles a 7" prop without modification, can handle huge wing loading (with extra reinforcement of course) and amazing top speeds.
The Mig29 V4 is the best stock built park jet I have ever flown, before that it was the Mig29 V3. If you are looking to modify your V3 with some V4 upgrades, you will be taking your V3 to an ever better level of performance in my experience. Even if you just build your Mig V3 stock, I am pretty confident you will find it head and shoulders better than the Mig V2, again just my experience. Very stable in all parts of the flight envelope, fast, agile and also capable of very good high alpha if you ever want to try that.
Anyway, good luck with your continuing thought process on how you are going to build and set up your Mig... :)
Cheers,
Scott